Interview with Fumihito Arai

Interviewer: To begin, I’d like to ask if you could share your full name, your date of birth, where you were born or grew up, and anything that you’d like to share about your parents or family, early schools, your home, anything about that sort of background that you are comfortable sharing.

Fumihito Arai: Okay. My name is Fumihito Arai. Well, now I live in the Tokyo area, and I’m originally from the suburb of Tokyo. You may not know Saitama Prefecture. It’s about an hour from the center of Tokyo Station. Yes. Then I studied in the Tokyo area, then went to Nagoya because I got a job at Nagoya University. Well, I got married there and lived with my wife and one child, Douta. Then currently I’m living in the Tokyo area because I work for the University of Tokyo. Yes.

—–Interviewer: Thank you. Do you want to share anything about your college or graduate experiences, including any mentors that were significant to you along the way?

Fumihito Arai: Okay. My undergraduate was Tokyo University of Science, and my mentor was Professor Toshio Fukuda. He’s a very famous guy. He was president of Ito-Pri and president of Robotics and Automation Society. Well, I joined his laboratory when I was an undergraduate student, and that was my beginning of robotics research life work. Yes.

—–Interviewer: Can you share anything about your work experiences over the course of your career? We’ll dive into some of these things in more detail. For now, where and with whom—colleagues that you’ve worked with, which departments you’ve worked in?

Fumihito Arai: Now, well, I should say my career. After graduation, I worked for Fujifilm for just one year. I went to Nagoya University to get a PhD. Also, I worked for this university because Professor Toshio Fukuda became a full professor at Nagoya University, and I joined his lab in Nagoya. Well, in the beginning, I studied on vibration control of the flexible structure. That was my beginning of robotics research. That was very interesting. So firstly, I finished my PhD. Then I continued robotics research in his laboratory.

Actually, he’s quite active and doing many, many things in terms of robotics, like self-assembly robot and reconfiguring professors around the good senses laboratory. And they advised me, “You should focus one research area.” And at that time I was quite fascinated in medical application. So I selected the biomedical micronan robotics. Yes, that was actually the beginning of my focused research area in robotics, yes.

—–Interviewer: So can I ask, jumping back, how did you originally get interested in robotics? Were there any events, books, films, people that inspired you or got you excited about robots and robotics in the first place?

Fumihito Arai: Okay, so I majored in mechanical engineering, right? So in mechanical engineering, there are many basics: mechanics, fluid mechanics, thermal engineering, medicine control, and dynamics. And the first time I visited Professor Fukuda’s laboratory, I saw the robot stop the vibration. Then that was a very big shock for me. That was the first time to see the machine do something meaningful things. And at the time that was quite interesting to me. That was the beginning of my interest in the robotics field.

Of course, there are many applications of robots, but well, I studied basics of mechanical engineering. But there is a really clear example of how a mechanical system functionalized. So that was very interesting. From then I studied many things. Of course, robotics is not limited to vibration control, but also swarm robotics and configurable robotics or intelligent robot or many dynamic robotics systems. So I studied many things. That was my beginning of robotics work.

—–Interviewer: That wouldn’t have been the first robot you ever encountered, was it—the one that you saw in that lab originally?

Fumihito Arai: Yes.

Interviewer: It was the first?

Fumihito Arai: First time, yes.

Interviewer: Had you ever seen or had you heard of or seen robots prior to that in any kind of media? Any kind of representations of robots before then?

Fumihito Arai: Of course, as you may know, Japan is very active in animation. You may know many robotic animations. That inspired me since I was a child. But I thought when I was a student it’s a different story—it’s a scientific fiction. But of course, that kind of thing, including movies, those things inspired me. But the big impact was real things, it moving in front of me. And I decided to study such kind of robotics without a doubt.

But of course, as you may know, robotics is very wide. There are many different research fields. So robots are too wide for young people. So as I told you, many people suggested me to focus on some specific area. Because I’m really interested in biomedical fields, there’s a good reason I went to the micro-nano robotics area. Because visualization is very important to make the robot functionalized, applied to the biomedical field. Yes.

—–Interviewer: Can you share anything more about the first robotics project that you yourself worked on?

Fumihito Arai: Yes, yes. So that was around 34 years old. I started a big national project. The funding is very large. It was 3 million US dollars or something. So at the time I was a young assistant professor, a lecturer in the Japanese system. It’s like between an associate professor and assistant professor. For such young people, 3 million US dollars is very big. But I felt quite responsible to pursue such a big project as a leader.

And at the time I focused on micro-nano manipulation of the biological things. For example, cell or small biological molecules or something, including the tissue or something. And at the time there were not so many research on the manipulation of small objects, especially wet objects like cell or tissue that will stay in the liquid environment. So I think there are many things to do. And I’m really interested in focusing into the micro-nano manipulation.

—–Interviewer: Where did you move from there? So you had this first large project. Can you share anything about the subsequent projects that you’ve worked on or subsequent robots that you’ve been a part of developing?

Fumihito Arai: Yes, actually my research focus is bio-robotics and micro-nano robotics. So bio-robotics, you know, there are many different definitions. But my definition is to realize robots based on the design principle of nature. Nature means human, the creature, many small animals, small things or something. Anyway, so that is a final goal. But to realize such kind of bio-robotics system, we have to know how they are designed and how they work, right? So, well, mimicking is a simple word, but in reality it’s very difficult. So I thought understanding of the mechanism of the living thing is very important. So why not utilize robotics to investigate the function and mechanism of the biological system like humans, right?

So I thought my definition of bio-robotics is two. One is robotics for investigation of living things. And second is by using such kind of knowledge, mimicking some artificial system. It may compose of artificial material including cell. I think cell is a part of the biological robotic system.

And there is a very famous word said by Einstein. He said, “Nature is a great teacher,” right? Looking deep into nature, then we can learn a lot, right? Therefore, I thought investigation is very important and the target size is very small—10 micrometer or less than that—cell level or molecular level. So human beings are easy to observe nowadays, but still manipulation is very difficult. But by employing micro-nano technology, micro-nano robotics, we can manipulate small things, including controlling the environment because if the size is small, the substance is a big issue, right? So we have to prepare a good environment for investigation, right? So I also studied about the micro-nano fluidic system and the manipulation of small things. That is one part of my research on biologics. And of course, another direction is mimicking the biological system based on the knowledge obtained from the investigation research work.

—–Interviewer: What were some of the main research questions that guided this work? What were you interested in pursuing in terms of research questions?

Fumihito Arai: Yeah, actually, I slowly focused into the biologics that was based on research around myself. I was in Nagoya University at the time, I belonged to Professor Fukuda’s laboratory, and he studied several biomedical robotic research projects. And he studied on a very small micro-robot, which can move inside the blood vessel. That is a really pioneering work, I think. But of course, at that time, it’s almost impossible to put it inside the blood vessel because it is dangerous, right?

Although we may see many movies like “Boyage” to, I don’t know the English name, but, you know, there are famous American, US movies. “Innerspace”? “Interspace”? No, no, no, maybe “Boyage” to something. Japanese name is Mikuromukeshiken, sorry. So it may, you know, English name must be different. But he’s doing, right?

And at that time, we belonged to Nagoya University, and I received an email from a medical doctor at Nagoya University. And he asked me that he’d like to contact, ask a question to Professor Fukuda, so that they can make a small micro-robot, which can be used inside the blood vessel. And I visited that medical doctor, his name is Dr. Nagoro, and he’s a very famous medical doctor in the field of catheter, right? It was around 1992 or something, a long time ago. And we started studying about catheter, a thin catheter, the teleoperation system, right? Well, of course, this project was headed by Professor Fukuda, but I worked with him.

And then I gradually thought, oh, biomedical application is very interesting. And to realize some new robotic system that is quite different from conventional robot, like humanoid or mobile robot or something, it must be small so that it can go inside, right? And it’s very difficult to make such a small robot. But looking into nature, there are many small things living. So that is quite amazing. And, well, it’s a big issue, you know, difference between the small living thing and large robotic systems. There is a big gap, right? So I thought it’s a very challenging research field, right? And there are many things. So I focused into the, well, the second topic of the bio-robotics is mimicking the living things and utilizing such kind of a new robotic system into the biomedical application. Yes.

—–Interviewer: So over the course of your career, what are some of the big challenges that you faced?

Fumihito Arai: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Challenge, many challenges, of course. You know, technical, social, institutional. Yeah. So, well, I said biomedical application, bio-robotics, but of course, it’s a big gap between living small thing and artificial robot. So I thought MEMS technology is one of the key components, technology to realize small robot. But at that time, my background was classical mechanical engineering, right? So MEMS is, of course, micro-electro-mechanical system, but more related to photoresographic fabrication technology. Of course, many, many things. But without having fabrication technology, we can’t make MEMS system, right?

But, well, I didn’t have a good environment to study in a university at that time, but I was lucky. Around 2005, I was promoted and went to Tohoku University as a full professor. And Tohoku University is, I think, one of the best universities in Japan related to the MEMS research work. And I was quite lucky to go to Tohoku University. So I decided, okay, I should study MEMS at Tohoku University. But I had to find a mentor. So I talked to a famous professor, Professor Eshashi. He’s very famous in the field of MEMS. And I visited him and I asked him to study the MEMS research field. That was my age, around 40 years. But, well, that was a good experience for me. And I studied MEMS for five years in Tohoku University. And I almost mastered the basics of photo fabrication and micro nanofabrication. And that is a big challenge or a very, you know, basement of my research. And using such kind of micro nanofabrication technology, I started making many small things. And that can be applied to the biomedical application. Yes.

So MEMS is nowadays very popular, but at that time, still there is a big gap between conventional robotics and MEMS research. MEMS is more focused on sensing and actuation. Also, the name includes the systems, right? But it’s just a sensor or actuator. And the robot, of course, there are many research, but they need such kind of technology, right? Robot needs many good sensors and good actuators, especially in the field of biomedical application. The total system should be miniaturized, right? So MEMS technology was inevitable to realize my concept. Okay. So that was my big challenge and big jump. And after staying four and a half years at Tohoku University, Nagoya University again invited me to come back and I went to Nagoya University. Yes. And I continued many things, right? Yes. That was a big challenge and turning a point over my research field.

—–Interviewer: Were there any tools that appeared during that time that helped you deal with or overcome those challenges or that opened up new possibilities for you? So, you know, that could be anything from something like the Kinect to, I mean, today, like large language models, any particular technologies or tools that appeared that moved your research along or helped you address some of those challenges?

Fumihito Arai: Yeah, of course. My PhD thesis is vibration control using neural network, right? At the time, neural network, fuzzy, and AI was very popular. So, well, I studied a lot more than 30 years ago. And of course, currently I utilize AI. And well, that is very important. So intelligence is another important aspect of robotics. And currently I’m also studying about laboratory automation for scientific exploration that includes many micro nano operations. And I utilize GPT-4 for communication between the automatic coding of the robotic system based on the communication by human operator and the robotic system. And there are many AI algorithms implemented into my micro nano manipulation system. So I think intelligence is a very important part of robotics. But, well, I’m more focused, interested in hardware aspects of robotics.

Think about the human being, right? It’s made of 40 trillion cells, right? So the spark of life comes from the coordination of those 40 trillion cells. It’s amazing. There are many unknown things, right? Human beings can’t mimic those mechanisms completely. Of course, we don’t understand everything, right? But the biological system is really complex in terms of hardware, right? But there is a very big gap. And current robot, of course, AI is very important as they are working if they are connected with energy, right? They’re working hard. But in case of the hardware aspect, if we cut off the electricity, they stop everything, right? But human beings, we are always actively working. Although, you know, maybe no consent, of course, but we are always working, okay?

And one interesting research work, current research work, is response speed measurement of the single ion channel of the cell, biological cell. I measured it by using my MEMS device, robotic system, and it was a few milliseconds, right? So the open and close of the single one, maybe not single, but open and close of the ion channel is a few milliseconds, right? That is working in very high speed. And of course, not limited to the ion channel, but we have an immune system. They are working hard. Now I’m speaking, but they are working hard, right? There might be any attack from the bacteria or infection, but they are always working. So the time scale of the human being is, I think, millisecond, right? They are always working. And let’s think about it. There are 40 trillion cells, right, in a human body. So the complexity, comparing the complexity between the current robotic system and the biological system is two different, right? So I feel there must be a big challenge. Of course, AI is a big challenge, but my interest is more focused on the hardware aspect of the robotic system, including miniaturization. Yes. Of course, I understand the importance of AI, therefore I utilize it. Yes. That is my standard point of view in robotics.

—–Interviewer: Is there any hardware that you’ve found particularly compelling or particularly useful that either came along or that you developed over the years?

Fumihito Arai: So useful is a very basic part of the robotics. It’s very important. So as I told you, my bio robotics can be classified into two cases. One is maybe investigation, robotics for investigation. And the second one is mimicking some realization of a new function that can be used for biomedical. For example, minimally invasive surgery or something. So the first part is relatively easier to make it commercialized. I mean, investigation, right?

So I made a startup, a clinical company, five years ago. The name is Mederidge. The name came from the bridge between the laboratory at the university and the medical field, maybe hospital or research institute or something. And that company developed a cell manipulation system.

So the target is cancer. So cancer cells are traveling around the blood vessel, right? In the cancer patient. So the task is to obtain, let’s say, five milliliter blood sample. And most of the cases, we call it the CTC, circulating tumor cells. It’s a cancer cell traveling inside the blood vessel. That is flowing inside the body. Let’s say one billion cells per few cells, right? So within a one billion cells, the number of cancer cells is only one or two or three. Some very rare. Therefore, it’s very difficult to catch and separate such kind of circulating tumor cells from the blood sample from the patient. So, well, I studied on micro manipulation research for the last 30 years. And I applied our technology to separate such small cancer cells from the blood. And we succeeded in commercialization, but commercialization of the service. So we take the blood sample from the patient and separate the cancer cell. That is our main business. Yes

.—–Interviewer: Can we talk a little bit about funding? So who’s funded your research and how you develop those relationships and maybe a little bit about if or how funding has influenced the direction of the research that you’ve done?

Fumihito Arai: That’s a very important point because we belong to the university. Basically, we are doing research for education and maybe research, pure research purpose, not for the business. So basically, our funding comes from the agency, like in our case in Japan, NEDO or Ministry of Education or JST or something like that, AMED or something. There are many funding agencies. So it’s a really competitive. So it’s not easy to get the research fund and that will be terminated in three or four years. So we have to continue getting a submission of the application form and getting the research fund. It’s very competitive and we are fully dependent on the funding.

But never give up and try again and again. And sometimes research is interesting, but not so successful. And another one is different. That was not so interesting, but it seems it’s really useful and that will be suitable for the commercialization. In such cases, in Japan, we have another opportunity to get the funding. So we made a startup and that startup applied for research funding or development funding. But basically, I belong to the university, so I try to get the funding for the research.

—–Interviewer: Have any of those funding structures changed over the years?

Fumihito Arai: Not so much. But I think, yes. Well, maybe this is a Japanese case. Firstly, we were more focused on the basic pure research. But nowadays, the Japanese government is more interested in goal-oriented. Another word is the backcasting approach. We should clarify the goal. Then, to reach the goal, what is necessary? Such kind of project is increasing. But the pure research is different. We do it because it’s interesting and curious. Curiosity driven. But nowadays, it’s more like a goal driven type.—–Interviewer: Would you differentiate between goal-driven and applied? Would you say that they’re not necessarily the same thing?

Fumihito Arai: Maybe different. Basically, the idea of thinking is quite different. In the case of a large national project, we are evaluated. So we have to work hard to get a good result. But the result depends on the evaluation target. In the case of a pure basic research, we just do the pure research. But in the case of a goal-oriented one, we have to think about many things, including the LCI issue—ethical, economy, law, or something. There is a little bit different from the pure fundamental scientific issues. But the goal-oriented one is more focused on such kind of topics. I think both are important, of course. But that is a tendency. For more than 20 or 30 years, we didn’t care about those things. But currently, technology should be utilized for society. I fully agree that is very important. But as a professor at a university, we have to care both pure science, pure engineering technology, as well as the social issues—how we implement our technology to the society. Therefore, we have to collaborate with many people, not only limited to the university, but also the industry, many different field people. That is very interesting.

But I don’t recommend to do such things for young people.

—–Interviewer: Why not?

Fumihito Arai: Because when the researchers are in the younger states, they should more focus on the basic basis of their research. They should more focus on some narrow specific research area. Then after that, maybe they can make a seed of the research. Then that can grow. But to grow it, they need support from the other people. But I mean, young people—say around 30 years old, 35 or something—they should focus more on their own technology or research. That’s my thinking.

—–Interviewer: You have to have the basic research to have the applied research at the end of the day. But in terms of, you mentioned working with companies, and you’ve also mentioned a startup of your own, Medibridge. Have you partnered with many companies or with the private sector much at all in terms of funding or collaboration?

Fumihito Arai: Of course, I collaborate with a big industry, big company, of course. In such cases, they have many collaborators. So in a sense, their community is very large. It depends. So I think that can be roughly classified into two cases in my case. So first, new technology emerges from my laboratory. That will be suitable for the big industry. I will collaborate with big industries because it depends on the market size or difficulty to commercialize. The most big impact is the uncertainty of the success. If it seems it will be a success, then a big company is easy to collaborate with us.

But another case is quite challenging. Well, a big company cannot take over such risky technology. Then I start up and then we try it because it is challenging. It’s very risky, but once it succeeds, we can get a big return. It’s a dream, right? So I classify it in two cases.

—–Interviewer: Over the course of your career so far, is there anything that you would have liked to pursue that you haven’t had the chance to? Are there any sort of problems, questions, ideas, opportunities that you have wanted or would have liked to pursue, but have not had the opportunity to yet?

Fumihito Arai: That’s a very difficult question. But, well, my major was mechanical engineering, but I always thought I’d like to expand my major. But, well, it’s very difficult because of time limitation and maybe, well, it’s another reason. But maybe, well, I talked about biomedical application. I’d like to study more about the different research areas. And to implement new technology, I always think I should study more about the different disciplines. But, well, in a sense, I need more time. And I always wish to focus on a different research field.

—–Interviewer: Well, within the time that you’ve had so far, what would you say are some of your most important contributions to robotics?

Fumihito Arai: Ah, yeah. So, well, in 40 or 50 years of the history of robotics, I think robotics has grown up and classified into different research areas. So, my major is basically micro nanorobotics. So, I’m more focused on the micro nano area. And, well, the contribution will be the investigation purpose. Once we made a good micro nanorobotic system, I think that can be used for the investigation purpose. Of course, some laboratory automation or something. But because the size is very small, humans can’t do that. But the robot can do it. There is a big advantage of micro nanorobotics. Of course, I like humanoid. But it may be the substitute of a human being, a robot or something. But in the field of micro nanorobotics, a medical robot, basically humans can’t do it. But the robot can do it. I think that is a great contribution. And of course, it should be used for many meaningful applications. For example, scientific analysis for discovery or something like that. And another thing will be the medical application. A small robot can go inside the human body and deliver the drug or cut off the tumor, or investigate the genetic meaning or something. That can be done by a micro nanorobot. So, I think that will be one of the great contributions in robotics. So, I’m very happy to continue this research work.

—–Interviewer: What are some of the changes that you’ve observed in robotics over the years as a field?

Fumihito Arai: Do you think it changes? I think basically no change, but growing. There are many big professors, pioneer works, many things. And they suggested many problems issued. But still, those problems are not solved yet. We need time. We need people, maybe money. So, I’m very happy this robotics area is expanding. Many people, as you can see, the conference started as a small workshop. Nowadays, it’s a very big conference. But basically, the direction of robotics is maybe not so big a difference. Of course, AI is very important and many new technologies, new materials. But a very basic concept is not so different. I think, yes.

—–Interviewer: So, you would say that there hasn’t been a change in the nature of robotics as a field so far, so much as a development and like, complexification of the field overall.

Fumihito Arai: Yes, yes. But of course, we dreamed to make a human-like robot or an insect-like robot or a swarm-like robot. But we can’t do that based on the narrow discipline. For example, classical mechanical engineering, classical electronics, or classical material science. But nowadays, we can incorporate many different disciplines like biology and maybe, well, new materials or something. So, possibility is expanding. In a sense, current robotics and conventional robotics is quite different. But I think there are many famous professors pioneering this robotics area. I think the idea may not change, but the methodology is expanding.

—–Interviewer: You’ve anticipated my next question, which was about what do you see as major developments in the future? So, in the next decade or two, where do you see robotics going?

Fumihito Arai: Ah, yes. In that sense, my basic understanding is that robots must be used for some useful purpose. So, in a sense, the body is very important and the brain is also important. So, I think AI is a big research topic. But AI is just a cyberspace. But the robot works in a real environment and interacts with the environment. So, when they move, they can feel or sense something. Then there are many sensing data. But without correctly processing those big data, we can’t control the robot properly. So, AI is very important. But AI’s data, processed data, should be properly processed and used for the motion generation again. It’s a kind of embodiment. Well, in a sense, AI is very important, of course, but robotic hardware is also important. Therefore, in the next generation, robotics is a good mixture, coordination of AI parts and hardware parts. Yes. There are many things, I think.

—–Interviewer: So, speaking of the real world and hardware, have the results of your own research been applied anywhere in real world situations?

Fumihito Arai: Yes.

Interviewer: Can you share a little bit about some of those examples?

Fumihito Arai: An example? It’s difficult. But many. Actually, the answer is many. But I should say one example. That’s good. You’re expecting me to say one example. So, in a sense, I’m doing now a big national project. It is called the Embody Cybernetic Avatars. So, the concept is a micro robot. That is a swallow, right? And it lives inside the human body and monitors the state of the human. For example, deep body temperature or pH or something. So, small robotic systems live together inside the human body and monitor. And they get many information, like deep body temperature or something. Then that will be sent to the computer system and they analyze what kind of living style and where he or she lives or moves or works or sleeps, how many time or something. Then what about the body condition? And after getting those data, maybe some avatar may suggest information to the human. Be careful about something. That is the concept of the Embody Cybernetic Avatar.

To realize such kind of system, we utilize firstly hardware system. That is very small, biocompatible, stays in the human body and does some meaningful things. For example, sensing or correcting some sample or delivery of the drug or something. But not only limited to such kind of motion and sensing, but also after getting many information, those data are processed based on the big data, AI, and they suggest something. So, it is really a coordination between the AI technology and hardware robotic technology. I am more interested, currently very interested in this technology.

—–Interviewer: That reminds me of something that I have encountered in my own research, where it is happening with cows. People are putting monitoring robots in cows as well. It sounds like it has parallel similar kinds of applications.

Fumihito Arai: That is basically for health monitoring. But also, nowadays, it is a very big social issue. In Japan, more than 100,000 people suffered from a heat shock in the summer season. But, you know, such many small robotic systems work together, live inside the human body. Then they may support useful information or get to the health condition or something. And of course, those technologies may not be limited to health monitoring. If we can realize such a small robotic system, it can be used for the surgery process. Surgery is more specific, but technology-wise, it is also different. So, based on such robotic technology, there are many applications, I think.

—–Interviewer: Do you want to say anything more about collaborations with or contributions to industry that you’ve experienced?

Fumihito Arai: Of course. I love collaboration with industry. I belong to the university for education, of course, but for research for society. But innovation is always realized by real implementation to the society. But we are not experts for real implementation. So, it is quite important to collaborate with industry people. But of course, we have to prepare good technology. Otherwise, they are not interested in it. As I told you, there are two ways. One is a big industry, where the risk may not be so big. And another one is very risky, but, you know, startup has a big dream and challenges. So, based on the character of the technology, I’m very interested in collaboration. Yes, industry.

—–Interviewer: So, I wanted to ask, do you have any recommendations for students who are interested in getting into robotics?

Fumihito Arai: Oh, yes. I should say, congratulations. Congratulations, you met robotics. Let’s select robotics as your life work. This is very interesting. Yes. Maybe you may be a researcher or working for the industry or maybe another type of contribution. But I think robotics is very interesting and it’s quite meaningful for our future work. Good use of robotics, right? So, I should say, congratulations. You found robotics. But robotics is very wide. There are many places you can contribute. So, as long as you are a young student or researcher, young researcher, please focus. Something. I think that’s very important. But congratulations. You’re lucky.

—–Interviewer: And our last question for you, is there anything that you would like to share that we have not talked about yet? Anything that we haven’t covered?

Fumihito Arai: Ah, maybe not. I enjoyed talking with you. Yeah. I think robotics is very interesting, I told you. I hope great success over our robotics community, society, and that will contribute to our life itself.

Interviewer: Thank you very much.

Fumihito Arai: Thank you so much. Thank you very much.