Interview with Satoshi Tadokoro

Interviewer: So to begin with, if you wouldn’t mind sharing your full name and when and where you were born, where you grew up, and maybe anything about your background or early life you’re willing to share about your family, school, where you lived, anything along those lines.

Satoshi Tadokoro: My name is Satoshi Tadokoro. I work in Tohoku University at present. I was born in 1960, so I’m already 65 years old, and I’ll be happy to become a life fellow soon.

Anyway, yes, I had spent six years at a university in Tokyo, and then I had a job in Kobe. And in Kobe, I worked there, in Kobe University, I worked there for 21 years, and I experienced a huge earthquake there. And in 2005, I moved to Tohoku University and became a professor.

Interviewer: During your college or graduate experiences, is there anything you’d like to share about your educational experience or any mentors that you worked with during that time?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Yes, so my professor was Professor Oda Wara, and my major was not robotics, but let’s say the design of LSI’s, and it’s so different from that. But I learned a lot there how to work, how to approach the problems and how to solve that. It was so nice experience, and yes, I had a very nice friend there, and so they nurtured me to become the current situation.

Interviewer: Can you share a little more about your work experience in terms of, at the different institutions you worked, some of your colleagues or what departments you worked in?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Yes, I worked in Kobe University. I worked in the Department of Instrumentation. That’s so my laboratory was for the mechanical instrumentation, so the measurement and control or something mechanically. And my boss was Professor Takamori. He was a really, really nice person. He is already 80-something years old. But I learned a lot there. So let’s say he has a really broad mind to accept many aspects of the approaches, and I sometimes tend to concentrate on the very one point. But he had a very broad eye, and so he nurtured me also. It was really nice.

And when I was in Kobe University, I did similar things about soft robotics, of course the early stage of soft robotics. And yes, my dream at that time was to make some liquid-type robots, which can include into a really narrow space, and it can maybe measure something like that. So it was my dream at that time. But technology at this level was so low, and it was not apparently practical.

And after the earthquake happened in 1995, I changed my mind to shift to rescue robotics, which is a practical application of robotics.

Interviewer: So you had already been working on robotics in that area when the earthquake took place? I’d like to return to that event, because I know it’s an important one. But if we can talk a little bit about how you got interested in robotics in the first place. So were there any events or films or books that got you interested or sent you down that path? Any people who inspired you to head in the direction of robotics?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Actually, when I was a child, the anime or manga were really popular for kids. And I enjoyed very much about robot cartoons. However, it disappeared when I entered university. And at that time, the industrial robots were really active research area. And so I didn’t do that in my university age.

But after getting a job at Kobe University, Professor Takamori said to me, you can do anything, anything but interesting. So I thought robotics would be very attractive and interesting theme for research. So I started that.

And Professor Takamori’s specialty was actuator. Actuator is a source of the energy of motion. So he was doing but a very new type of actuator, not electric motor or hydraulic power. So using the new principle or new physical nature, something moves. And so his approach of the actuator. And I followed his approach. And I did something about the ionic gel type actuator. And that was my, I would say, interest at that time.

Interviewer: Do you remember what the first robot you ever heard about was?

Satoshi Tadokoro: The first robot? Yeah, the first robot ever. Yes, so, yeah, so the industrial robot was really popular. No, so before that, in cartoon, the Tetsujin Nijo Hachigo, that is maybe a Giganto in English. And it was my, let’s say, first trio when I was a kid. And yes, I love to watch the TV every week. But after that, yes, so in the classroom, in university, I learned a lot about the industrial robots. So that’s, yes, so.

But in my university age, I helped something for developing nuclear maintenance robot. So as one of the developers, because Professor Odawa was a part of some consortium, research consortium. And my, what you say, main research team was not, was completely independent. But he asked me to design some electrical board and some basic software and so on. So yes, I helped something. But it’s completely engineering and not the research level at all.

Interviewer: Do you see any through line between your early affection for Giganto and a later interest in robotics or is it not necessarily that connected?

Satoshi Tadokoro: It’s not connected at that moment, but after the earthquake.

Interviewer: So you’ve already described a little bit about the first robotics project or projects that you worked on. Is there anything more you’d like to expand on about that or any interesting details that are worth sharing?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Yes. So when I moved to Kobe University, there was no facility of robots in the laboratory. So I wanted to start from simulation. So at the time, some industrial issues, there were several industry issues unsolved. So I tackled with vibration suppression of the industrial robots. That was my first thing.

But after that, I thought maybe the safety of the robots are very important because after buying some experimental robots, it doesn’t work in a good way. And sometimes it was dangerous. So I thought such kind of safety is very important. So I developed something for when the robot touches to the human body, it stops or it controls the force exerted with the human body. So that was next approach. And after that, I shifted to more about the actuator. And yes, so I started some gel type actuator.

Interviewer: What period of time are we talking about there when we were working on the safety of robots and the actuator?

Satoshi Tadokoro: It was, yes, I entered Kobe University in 1984. And at the end of the maybe the 1989 or 1990, I shifted to soft robotics because I met Dr. Oguro in Osaka Institute of Technology, currently part of the ISD. And so he invented or he found some new material to respond very quickly by the electric space stimulation.

Interviewer: So it sounds like it’s interesting that there’s a connection between an early interest in the safety of robotics, and then your later focus on robotics for safety, so to speak, for rescue and emergency. Would you mind sharing a little more about your movement towards that field and what robotics that you worked on after what inspired that shift?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Yes, so I experienced the Hanshin Awaji earthquake in Kobe in 1995, January 17. And yes, more than 6,000 people died there. And let’s say the towns are full of debris, and most wooden structures collapsed, and the people buried in such kind of situation. And Kobe was a really fashionable city, nice city. You know Kobe beef? Yes, nice city. But it was completely destroyed in a few minutes. And there was a big fire, and so many people died there.

And one of the students of mine buried in debris for more than four hours. And yes, he was saved by some volunteers. But the medical doctor said maybe he will die. There’s no hope to survive. But fortunately, he survived, and he’s working in Kansai Electric Company at present. But anyway, it was a really shocking time. And I heard at that time from several students, they escaped, they saved human lives. So yes, like that.

So the houses collapsed, two-story houses. And the first floor collapsed, and the second floor remains. This is a typical type of collapse there. And then the persons who lived in the second floor had no problem. But the first floor is crushed, and the columns and such structures are on the body. So they say they realized there is a sound of voice from the first floor. So she lived in the second floor. So she didn’t understand what happened. But anyway, it seems the houses collapsed. So there’s a voice. So she thought he must save her or him. So removed the debris, destroying some floor, board, and so on. And several trials, she could save some people. But there was success, and there were several failures.

And yes, one student said to me a really sad story. He tried to save her body. And yes, he tried to extract her from the hole of the crushed part. It was impossible. He was a football team, champion team of the– what to say– he was a really nice player forward. But yes, he couldn’t do it, because maybe a heavy column is on her leg. And she said to him, please cut her leg to save her. But he couldn’t. And after that, fire came. And she had to escape from that situation. It was a really, what to say, shocking story. And he was weeping, big body person weeping.

So it’s beyond the human capability, of course. However, when I saw a cartoon in my childhood, so some hero robot come and help us. And yes, such kind of hero should be able to save such lives in that situation. So let’s say, yes, I thought so. And I imagined so. It’s not a reality. But I thought, I have to do something, even if it is so small or it’s not successful.

Interviewer: Thank you very much for sharing about that. And I’d be interested to learn more about your efforts toward that end, following that event. So I know you’ve worked with different types of robots with an interest in search and rescue. Or how would you characterize the way that you’re pursuing the design of robots?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Yes, my imagination was we have to create robots. But there was no idea what to do or what type of robot. And so we started from the investigation of the current situation of such kind of a robotics research. And the conclusion was no one was doing that, no research so far. Not at all, but let’s say it’s almost zero. And in the IGP papers, there was no such kind of stories there, at least for saving lives.

So at present, many people write in the introduction that this technology is useful for rescue or some disaster response or such kind of things. However, there was no such kind of text at that time. So that means, yes, nothing means that after 10 years or 20 years or 100 years, maybe there would be nothing. No robots, no shields. So I didn’t think at that time we can do something. But anyway, if we start, then after 10 years, after 20 years or 100 years, maybe something could become possible. So that was my idea.

However, many people supported or collaborated for this project of investigation. And I found the problem domain was so huge. So I thought the extraction of the human body was really important. But other people thought the finding victims are very important. And yes, of course, the medical treatment is, of course, very important. Or such kind of the human collaboration, it’s a wide range of problems.

So my specialty was actuator. So maybe I thought I could apply my technology to some solutions. But it’s not apparently enough. And I thought we need the collaboration of so many people. And if many people join us and many people contributed a little bit, then maybe we would be able to have some practical solutions. That’s what I thought.

And yes, by myself, I was doing some research in parallel cable driven robots. That’s what’s a special type of some robots, industrial robots. So at first, I tried to apply it to the removing debris and made some mock-up. But the problem domain was so difficult. And it’s apparently very much like toys. I could write paper, but paper is paper. It was no use. The technological level was maybe two or three. And it’s far from the reality.

Interviewer: So you’ve shared about main research questions and motivations. It sounds like you faced some pretty significant challenges along the way. Would you mind sharing a little bit about some of the most significant challenges that you’ve had to deal with or overcome or continue to haunt you today?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Yes, so yes, we– in the investigation research, we had several interviews with first responders in self-defense force, that is military in Japan. And firefighters, police, and the E.S., and the volunteers, and so on. And the conclusions from the first responders was the finding victim was a very most important part for the search and rescue. If they can identify the victim’s position, then there would be some tools or some ways to save the victim’s body. However, they have no way to find it.

And so there is some rescue dog. And there are some, let’s say, the tools like a fiber scope or such kind of things. But it’s very difficult to use it. And sometimes it is effective, but in most cases, it was not effective. And at least in the Hanshin Awaji earthquake in Kobe, there’s no way to use it. So that is the problem domain.

And so I wanted to change my research focus on the finding victims. So I struggled to do something better. And I met a really nice opportunity with Dr. Shirok Ikitano. He’s at present maybe a CEO of Sony Corporation. So he and his group started RoboCup. That’s a robot competition of the football soccer team. So they had a dream of winning the world championship in 2050. And yes, it’s a really fantastic but stupid type of dream. They have very interesting things. And I met him at the IKRA in 1998, I think, in Belgium. And so after some keynote, he talked about that introducing the RoboCup.

But he added some words important for me. And he said his RoboCup’s dream is win the championship. However, it is not a true dream. The real dream is that RoboCup contribute to industry or solving the world global problem. For example, disaster. Kobe had a huge earthquake and there was no robot. So if the RoboCup can contribute to that, it’s really nice. So for this purpose, we are doing the football game. And it was so shocking talk. And yes, immediately after that, I contacted him with Professor Minoru Asada, Osaka University. He is a co-starter, co-initiator of RoboCup. And yes, we talked about the real, let’s say, the contribution to the rescue robots. And yes, after that, we made a discussion and then we could start the RoboCup rescue competition.

It was so huge innovation because RoboCup’s soccer is a competition. I would say no one pays for RoboCup itself. But each researcher gather money, finding some research fund from, for example, NSF or anything, and make research and bring robots to the competition side and fight. So it is from the organization side. It’s free of charge.

So for rescue robots, I tried to have a research fund, but everything was failure because some people said it’s out of scope of this research fund. Or I don’t know what is a scientific contribution. I understand the social contribution, but it is a scientific fund. So I cannot give you money. So that is the reply. So it was so hard to get money. And for industry, it’s not, let’s say, a good market for the companies at that time, at least.

But we wanted to start. So such kind of volunteer mechanism of RoboCup was really attractive for me at that time. Then we started, and yes, there were several teams from the world, and they contributed to make good technologies. And yes, so its contribution to the real rescue was really significant.

So for example, we had the annual competitions of RoboCup. So Adam Jacob in NIST was a leader of that competition, and he’s in this conference and demonstrating some cooperative robots there. So in the first stage, almost all the robots were toy. And toy moves by some operation, remote operation, and it has a camera. And it is transmitted and see the inside of the debris and find out, not find, yeah, that’s a situation. Very, very simple. However, after that, the mobility was really, really improved gradually, spending 10 years. And autonomy, including some mapping capabilities, improved. And sensing capability improved some recognition. And yes, so several technologies were added. And yes, it became quite practical solution.

And yes, using that opportunity, we made several robotic systems. And when the technology becomes higher, our government changed mind to invest it because the domain is very important. So in Japan, quite a large project started. And also, yeah, and yes, we could make some very nice robots. And yeah, some robots won the World Championship in the RoboCup competition. And yes, we were proud of that at the time.

And yes, so I moved from Kobe University to Tohoku University in 2005 during that kind of trial and error. And in 2011, Eastern Japan earthquake happened. And it was my second time of huge earthquake experience. Yes, I was in the United States at that time. So if I make more correctly, I say more correctly, my wife experienced twice the earthquake.

But anyway, in the United States, in college station, there is a disaster city, which is the training site of first responders, maybe one of the largest training sites in the US. And in Texas, I was trying some verification of the performance of our robots called QUEENZ. And yes, so QUEENZ has the capability of moving on hard debris, really tough condition. And it has a function of the mapping and some finding victim or such kind of functions. But the disaster city situation was too hard for that robot.

So at the final stage of the project, which ends at the end of March 2005, I know 2011, I wanted to check its capability there. And I went there and make experiments. And the result was so nice, very successful.

And yes, at that time, Professor Robin Murphy in Texas A&M, she’s a leader in rescue robotics, collaborated with us. And yes, she said to me, it’s so fantastic. And yes, I was really happy to collaborate with her. But at the end of that experiments, I heard some shocking news that a huge earthquake happened in Japan. So I had rushed back to Japan. And yes, that story of the Eastern Japan earthquake.

And in Eastern Japan earthquake, so many people died by tsunami. And the shake was not very hard. But anyway, it was so huge tragedy. And maybe the largest issue was Fukushima Daiichi explosion. So the nuclear power plant had a very severe accident and exploded. And it had been stabilized. And the wide areas are contaminated. And we had to stop it. And it was the first priority of Japan and maybe of the world.

And the center where I live in and the Tohoku University is, it’s 100 kilometers from Fukushima Daiichi. And yes, so the radiation level at the first stage was not high. And after that, it didn’t become high. But if the second explosion happened, it might be maybe serial damage. So we had enough reason why we tried hard or we contribute hard to stabilize that situation.

And when I—it was March 11th in 2011. And at the middle of March, I heard that iRobot kindly donated the PackBot, military robot to our government or typical Tokyo electrical company. And yes, so when I heard that, yes, I thanked them very much. However, I knew the capability of PackBot. PackBot is very nice, reliable robot and used in the war situation. And it’s a very nice robot. However, it was not designed for debris. So for example, the capability of climbing the steps is maybe 35 degrees or something like that. However, in the Fukushima Daiichi or nuclear power plant, it’s more than 45 degrees. And so it’s beyond the, let’s say, design parameters.

We tested PackBot and other such type of response robots with our robot QUEENZ. And yes, compared good things and bad things. And yes, so there are pros and cons. But anyway, if it is an exploded situation, PackBot is not fully deployable. So I knew that.

So I called up to military of economy, trade and industry, saying that maybe we need some other solutions. And we are developing the QUEENZ as a product of the NEDO project. NEDO is an agency, a funding agency of METI, Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. So there’s enough reason why we use it for this situation. And we can contribute it. And then they made some, let’s say, forum of contacting the typical people.

And then the remodeling started from April after they check how a PackBot can use and how PackBot cannot be used in the hard situation. Because QUEENZ was proved that the mobility was so high. But the reliability is not high. It’s a research robot. And the human interface was not sophisticated. And so I would say it’s not apparently practical solutions in the ordinary time. But if there is no solutions, yeah, we have to use it. And then maybe something happens.

So yes, we remodeled. And yes, the team leader of that remodeling was Professor Koyanagi in the Chiba Institute of Technology. And he had some field, test field in the campus. And using that, as we did several things, spending two months and no, three months. And QUEENZ was sent to the Fukushima Daiichi. And yes, it contributed a significant country for checking the radiation inside and sample of dust, which is contaminated by radiation, radiated materials. And yes, so they could know the situation very well.

They wanted to revive the cooling system, which is a spraying water by open valve. But they didn’t know the situation of the pipes and the valves and so on. It might be exploded. Then they can do it. But they checked the situation so they could make a plan. And from the next day, real mission started of humor. So 200, 300 human entered there one by one, spending a few minutes there by carrying some tools or one person opened the door, ran in and ran out immediately. In that way, they opened the valve and the cooling started. And then the temperature started to go down from the boiling situation to normal situation.

So apparently, we could contribute the planning. I don’t know if there is no such quiz, what TEPCO could do. But anyway, we were really happy that we contributed.

Interviewer: If I have read correctly recently, you’ve been working with rescue dogs as well? Would you like to share anything about that current research? Pairing robots with other species?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Yes. Rescue dog is a very important tool for such rescue because it has very nice nose and it can smell the odor from the human body. But it is very difficult to use it because the handler who operates the dog has to be beside the dog and order the dog to go there to maybe in 10 meter or 20 meter or something that. Then the dog must be near.

However, if there is some robotic support, the situation changes. So for example, if it has a camera onboard, then the operator, the handler, can know where the dog is and what the dog is doing. By that idea, my colleague, Professor Kazunori Ono, invented a rescue canine suit. That is an empowering suit for dogs. It has a camera and GPS and some other sensors like a microphone, speaker and some sensors. By using some iPhone, we can monitor the behavior of dog. So where it is, how it is behaving, running or barking or such kind of things. Also we can see what the dog is looking. So dogs usually bark when they find the victim. Sometimes dogs bark when they find food. So it is animal, not human.

Using that tool, the capability of dog was so much enhanced. So his research is fantastic. We can command the behavior to dog. Turn right, turn left or yes, by using some special light. The dog follows the light and then it moves like that. Using that technology, we can use 10, 20 dogs by one operator. In a 2km, 1 mile or 2 miles area, we can send the dogs at the same time. Sometimes old people enter the forest and children enter the forest and it is hard to find. But in that case, if we use such rescue canines, then we can find them immediately. Very easy because if we use only one dog, it is really hard. But if we use 20 dogs, it is an immediate solution. So that is a really nice research result. But it is not commercially available, unfortunately, at present. I hope some companies would buy it to make it a product.

Interviewer: That is fascinating work. It meshes with a picture I have of the horror story that the sort of media portrays as replacement. That robots or automation will replace things. It seems that the truer story here is that it augments or it sort of collaborates with. And it sounds like a very good example of exactly that. It is very interesting.

Satoshi Tadokoro: Collaboration is very, very important because it is a wide area, wide, wide program.

Interviewer: So you have given a really wonderful picture of different areas of interest, different approaches to problems and motivations to address those problems. Have there been any particular tools that have appeared over the course of your career that you have found had a major impact on the possibilities of your research or any new technologies or things that became available that significantly shaped what you were doing or made new things possible?

Satoshi Tadokoro: For the research, there are several things. For example, high mobility was that, of course. And in addition, the sensing technology in the hardware situation is very hard. It is very important. For example, if there is a fog, we cannot see anything. However, if we use some technology, we can see beyond the fog.

And also, the SLAM or such kind of self-localization mapping technology is important for robotics. So it makes them up and the position of the robot is identified at the same time. However, in a narrow space like inside of debris, it is impossible or very difficult because if we use camera, camera moves in the debris. And the camera image moves really fast. And if the camera frame for it works for 30 frames per second, it’s impossible. So we need a higher frame rate, for example, 200, 300 frames per second. However, in that case, the real time SLAM was so difficult. However, using some technique, we were really successful for making the map inside the debris.

And so we developed some serpentine robot for entering the really narrow space of a few centimeters, a few inches gap. And so it is originally moved by vibrating the serie hair, which is attached to the cable, long cable. It’s a really soft robot and it can enter in the marble pile. But it’s a soft robot, so it cannot go beyond the large gap. One centimeter, two centimeters, okay. But if there’s one meter, two meters, it cannot fly. So it’s on, let’s say, beyond. It’s so difficult issue.

So we made a discussion with students and one student said, “I have an air jet at a tip. Maybe it can float and it can move beyond the gap.” But I didn’t believe it because air jet makes such kind of cables very unstable and it flips and cannot move, maybe. I said, “But,” he said, “I think we can do it.” Okay, so try it. Then he tried. And yes, it was so successful. And yes, on the first stage, it was not stable and it was so difficult. And he could show it might be possible. But in some very nice situation, it could move. So that means if we introduce better control technology or better some mechanical design or better intelligence, then maybe it could move in a stable way under many conditions. And yes, we tried hard. And after a few years, yes, it was so successful. So the cable float and it can go into the debris. That was so nice technology.

Interviewer: I love the idea of the cilia, like an earthworm. So to move ahead into a slightly different area, and I’d like to wrap up in a little bit here with some questions more about your perspective on some social questions and other things. But before we get there, I wanted to ask about funding. So who has funded your research over the years? How you developed relationships? You talked a little bit about that change from not being seen as scientific work to being seen as scientific work. How has funding influenced your research? What relationships have you had? Anything along those lines?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Yes, so my first big fund was given by the next Ministry of Education, Education, Science and Technology. And it was so huge. Using that fund, more than 200 people all over Japan collaborated. That started from 2002 and ended at 2006. And it was maybe the world first case, such kind of rescue robots were funded in large scale.

And yes, we communicated with the governmental officers. And stress the importance about that. But they didn’t believe that at first stage. However, in 2001, a World Trade Center building accident happened, terror happened. And Professor Robbie Murphy brought a robot there and tried search. And yes, that was really big news in Japan.

And so the top researchers, the head of some research community of the disaster science, thought maybe robotics could be the next generation solutions for some special cases. Then they decided to give a fund. It’s a really, really fortunate case. And many people didn’t believe it the first time.

But anyway, yeah, so that influence was really, really huge. And we could develop QUEENZ. And it was used in the Fukushima Daiichi. And without that project and without RoboCup, there was no such QUEENZ. Then maybe the stabilization of Fukushima Daiichi would be much more delayed.

And the second one is after the East San Japan earthquake. So the so such a robotic system or some high tech is very important. Yeah, so many people thought that. So big projects started called impact, tough robotics challenge. And yes, tough means not really a wireless situation, but the capability of the robots. Where the robots function, robots function, robot technology or intelligence functions in really difficult situations. I call tough as I define tough as such kind of the robustness of the technology. And we wanted to develop such tough technology to make the robots in reality for the real disaster situation. And yes, that is also very important funding. And active scope camera floating, active scope camera was developed using that project. And yes, so many people, maybe 300 people collaborated in Japan, not only in Japan, but from US, from Australia. And yes, several people collaborated and made collaboration research. It’s so nice.

Interviewer: Has most of your research funding been public or have you partnered with companies of any kind?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Mostly public. Of course, we have some collaboration with companies, but most of them are industrial applications and for rescue mainly from public. But we have several support from industries. They gave us some technologies and materials and several things. So I really thank them.

Interviewer: Is there anything that you would have liked to pursue but didn’t get the chance, any kind of lines of research or research questions that you haven’t been able to go after so far?

Satoshi Tadokoro: There are several. Yes, my dream was to save lives and our robots deploys at every stage of the disasters. However, it is not reality at present yet. So yes, it was used in a very special case of Fukushima Daiichi or some special cases of, for example, the construction accident or several cases. But the application is limited. So I want to extend or enhance such application area very much. Yes, drones are very, aerial vehicles are very successful case, but other robots are not very successful at present.

Interviewer: What do you see as your most important contributions to robotics so far?

Satoshi Tadokoro: I think, yes, I did some technical contribution, but more than that, I asked many researchers to contribute to rescue. And yes, many people collaborated with me and made the solutions. That is my biggest contribution.

So yes, I wanted to do the same things in this robotics and movement society. And yes, became president in 2016 and 17. I don’t think I did very well. But anyway, I wanted to have a collaboration of the members. So yeah, such a community building is very important.

Interviewer: You say there’s a noticeable or significant difference between when you were first looking in and found almost nothing and what the field looks like today?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Yeah, so when I started in 1995, it was zero, apparently. And at present, it is 0.1 or 0.2 at present. And yes, in many papers, people write this technology is applicable to disaster situations or effective to disaster situations, even if it is true or not. But yes, so people think this is our domain. And this is a typical contribution of technologies. So people believe so. Then maybe we will have solutions in the future.

Interviewer: So what are the important developments that you think are going to unfold over the next 10 or 20 years?

Satoshi Tadokoro: I think, yes, the explosion of AI is really, really nice. And 20 years ago, the recognition of some, let’s say, natural things was a really difficult issue as a research. But now it is very easy. We can use deep learning and it’s easy. We can recognize many things. And we could make some map by SLAM technology. However, at present, we can have a semantic map. So we can know there are several objects like a table or chairs or some pencil or PC or such kind of information is embedded in the map. Then we could make a better plan of behavior of robots. However, in the disaster situation, it is very difficult to that.

Maybe I believe in this 10 years or 20 years, we would be able to do the same things as some offices or kitchens. And yes, because the human can understand the debris. So for example, the material debris of this is wood or this is iron. And this is from the house or from the furniture or so. Yes, people know it. We can know it.

However, the current robots can measure the shape and it can know the void shape. And then it can move in the void. That’s all. But we need to identify the victim. And we need the stability of the structures. And we need to check the very critical point. For example, the electricity or some gas. If there’s gas leaking, then we have to think of the safety about that. Then before doing something, we have to shut the valve or do something. Otherwise, it’s exploded. So we need such kind of intelligence for the rescue robots in the future.

But before that, we need more practical tools for false responders. Because the AI can be maybe it becomes possible after 10, 20 years. And after 10, 20 years, maybe it will become practical after more 10 years. It’s too late. It’s too late. So we want to have practical tools also. That is, let’s say, desired direction of research and development for the rescue robots.

Interviewer: Thank you. So you’ve described already in some detail ways in which your research has been applied in real world situations. I think it would be interesting to turn to the question of, along the lines of thinking about the future, do you have any recommendations or advice to students who might be doing this kind of future research? Any students who are interested in robotics, what would your recommendations or advice be?

Satoshi Tadokoro: Yes, so robotics has a wide area of applications. And yes, students may be interested in some specific applications, maybe. But if you develop some technology, please think of rescue. And if it is applicable to rescue, please try it. It’s a message to students. And if your technology can save human life, it is a big dream. Because human life is most important.

Interviewer: And the last question I have for you is whether or not there’s anything you would like to share that we have not yet covered ourselves?

Satoshi Tadokoro: I really would like to thank every people who contributed to rescue robotics. So because we collaborated, then we have some limited solutions. And further collaboration would make further results. And we want to make a humanitarian contribution. So I’d like to ask everyone to continue.

Interviewer: Anything more? No, thank you. Thank you so very much for sharing with us.

Satoshi Tadokoro: Thank you so much. Thank you very much.